evocates: (Ouran: Kyouya - Poignance)
• just another dreamer • ([personal profile] evocates) wrote2008-10-25 09:15 pm
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on writing, and 'pretty'

ironic as it might seem, i don't like fics that are pretty. pretty, but empty, like a crystal vase sitting by the window. you look at it once in a while, and it's gorgeous in the light and captures rainbows in the diamond-shaped facets, but...

it gets boring, after a while.

when i use metaphors, i try to use them in-character, and with reason. my imagery tries to paint a picture with good reason. i'm trying to make a point here, with every word i write, and every metaphor and simile and description contributes to that point. that's why writing is, to me. it's to communicate - to tell a story, to weave something gorgeous in the minds of the reader. i try to make everything like a constant video, like you are watching the world through the eyes of the characters and it's appropriately tinted. i don't know whether i succeed, but i try.

what i really dislike, honestly, are descriptions and metaphors and imagery for the sake of it. they are pretty, they help the reader visualise but-

there isn't a point. there isn't a true story to tell. there isn't characterisation. replace these two characters with anyone else and the fic works perfectly fine, or even better, in some cases. the metaphors used aren't what the character themselves might use. it's all a sort of mess of pretty language and it's really such a pity. because, really, these fics are no different from those millions of beautiful, realistic landscape paintings (things like this.)

it serves no purpose. it's like a crystal vase, all ornamental and nice to read once in a while but eventually the magic fades, and it just becomes something your eyes slide past each time you walk by it. it's really very sad when this happens, because-

all these authors, they could have done so much better. these authors - they are the ones who can do it. they can create images, draw links, characterise. it's just that-

they're doing it all so disjointedly, and in the end, it's all a waste. there's no purpose, no meaning, and it's just so flimsy in the end. they could have done more; written something more memorable, something that truly strikes you with a truth that touches your heart, or even an image that haunts you even when you're surrounded by mundanity, or something about the character that changes entirely how you view him.

because that's what art is.

change. revolution. even if it's something miniscule. it's what i try to do with every piece of fic i write - create art.

because that's what language is.

eta; wow. so many responses, and so fast? -takes note of the timing. or is it the subject matter? hmm.-

[identity profile] pollinia.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 01:39 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh my goodness, yes. A million times yes.

It's frustrating as a reader and disappointing as a writer to continue to see stories that are either all story or all style. Sometimes, the plot just screams to me. It can be so raw and evocative and interesting and full of these brilliant intuitive jumps. ...But the writer lacks the effort/ability/interest in conveying the story in a new and interesting.

Or--and this is what you're talking about--it feels like the writer is just throwing metaphor and description at us because "Ahahaha, look at what I can do! I am so creative and witty and art-ee-stic!" But the story is empty. No plot. No development. No solid characterization.

What we need to do, really, if you look at it in the most logical and plausible way possible, is wrangle all of these writers up--the plot!writers and the style!writers--lock them in a room full of computers and pads of paper and make them collaborate. And then maybe we'd have some decent fic to read when we're suffering from insomnia at 5am goddamnit. XD



(Also, a small, paranoid part of my brain is hoping that it isn't my work you're talking about, because I know I can go a little overboard with the metaphors now and again in everything I write. LOL)

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 05:59 pm (UTC)(link)
Mmr, actually I don't see much of a problem with the first one. Because some plots need to be that raw, that emotional. I think this particularly applies to short stories, in which the writer uses simple language to convey what he means. But I see what you mean, that somehow the language is too... well, plain to contribute much to the story. It just communicates, you know? And not complement the content properly. (Shucks I think I've been doing too much editing nowadays.)

YES. Precisely. When the writer does literary somersaults and just spouts metaphors and pretty language. Sometimes they don't know what to do with the character, or the plot, or something of that sort, so they wrap that all up in a shiny wrapping paper of language. It's really irritating sometimes, like opening your Christmas present and finding out that hey, you got an empty box.

Hahahaha YES. Perhaps one day when we ENTJs rule the world, I can do that. -cackles.

[identity profile] jailbreak.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 05:01 pm (UTC)(link)
I think it's a matter of preference? I know quite a few people that write "pretty" - heck, I try to experiment in that style too - but that doesn't mean their writing doesn't serve purpose, uh. Sure, it might take a second reading or three hundred to get what they're trying to say, but - idk, it's still art?

Like, you write a certain way - the novel-way, the traditionalist way, while these writers write in like... a more abstract/poetic way. It's different, not the same, and you can't disregard what they're doing as something that "serves no purpose," because they wrote it for a reason, and even if you didn't get it, even if you thought that it's just something that sits pretty and nothing beyond that, it's still memorable to other people. I, for one, really enjoy that kind of style, and like it when people find new ways to describe stuff, haha, 'cause it's usually in that style where it happens.

- I don't think this made a whole lot of sense, but I think what I'm saying is, don't discount the "pretty" fics. They're just as much as an artform as regular writing is. It's just different, not meaningless or whatever.

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 05:22 pm (UTC)(link)
Oh, it's definitely a matter of preference. This is my opinion, 's all. ^^ And I do adore finding a new way to describe things - my writing is full of imagery and metaphors and whatnot, but I think that there's a line that has to be drawn, where it moves from 'fiction' to simply 'pretty writing'.

I have written two entries - not fic, but musings - that are public that I feel to be simply 'pretty writing'. I do it all the time because that's how I think, in general, in images and descriptions, which is why I know where the line has to be drawn. When it comes to fic, when it gets far, far too descriptive, it stops becoming 'fiction' because that implies stories and characters and all of that is drowned under language.

There's a reason why imagist poems are terribly short, and many of them seem almost ridiculous and pointless (for one hilarious example, google 'This is Just to Say' by William Carlos Williams). Sometimes it veers too much into the pretty language and the beautifully shaped words and lines that it stops saying anything about the characters or the story. Because those gorgeous lines aren't really what a character will actually think, so they don't contribute to characterisation, and they don't move on the story.

Perhaps I take too much lit analysis classes, but for me what 'art' and 'good writing' means to me is... well, having something to say, and to say it in a way that people will be able to get your point immediately. Drowning the characterisation and plot in pretty language frustrates me, because honestly the shine of the language fades on the second read (and rereadability is one of the main criteria that I judge any work of literature), and it just becomes like a crystal vase. You stop being entrance by the rainbow and your eyes slide past it.

But I understand that it's a matter of personal taste. I'm just mostly rambling to get my thoughts out proper, really. ^^; So thank you for actually engaging me into a discussion. ♥

[identity profile] jailbreak.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 06:07 pm (UTC)(link)
People who write "pretty" know where to draw the line too?

Most of the "pretty" writing I've seen don't overload their prose with imagery and metaphors and all the other stuff you're talking about, so I'm not really sure why you'd think the characters and the stories are drowned by it. Maybe you're just reading the wrong stuff? 'cause if that's the case, then that's just - bad writing, not "pretty" writing uhhhh.

Perhaps I take too much lit analysis classes, but for me what 'art' and 'good writing' means to me is... well, having something to say, and to say it in a way that people will be able to get your point immediately.

. . . Isn't that just a dissertation, and not literature? Because to me, 'art' and 'good writing' can't really be defined by a strict set of guidelines. It's supposed to be experimental, fluid, able to change according to the writer's whim - that's what language is. Words, sentences, phrases - haha, they're there to be manipulated, not boxed in, I think, so if you don't get the point at first reading - then maybe the author's trying to tell you something. But then again, I've never had trouble reading "pretty" writing, or maybe I'm just used to it. And again, a lot of the "pretty" writing I've read don't drown their characterization with purple prose; the characters still are pretty recognizable, and all that.

Haha, it's just. I write this way too, sometimes, and a lot of my friends do, as well, so - I get it that it's just a matter of preference, but please don't look down on it as if it's something you can't appreciate?

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 02:31 am (UTC)(link)
Not just a dissertion, I think. I'm not saying that language has to be boxed in - I write for a living, I know that language is to be manipulated, and everyone has their own writing style. But honestly, if I don't get the point after the first few readings, then there isn't any. I find this particularly prolific in 'pretty' writing, and no, I'm definitely not talking about purple prose! In purple prose, it is still, well, recognizable as a fanfic. Oh dear, I think we misunderstood on that part.

What I'm talking about abstract writing. I really don't want to pull out examples or even the fics that I feel fit this post entirely, because this is a public post, so I'm going to try to describe what I think here. It's when the writers pull out literary somersaults and gorgeous, abstract descriptions - sometimes entirely in one character's POV and it makes me take a step back and gape because there's nothing there that hints to me properly that it's that character in particular, or even that there's a plot or even a plot to all of it. It becomes so abstract, so pretty in that it loses all meaning and become like the crystal vase.

Mm, no, I'm not looking down on it. I just, like you said, I don't appreciate it, thus I don't like it. And I really think it's a huge pity because writers who write like how I described above have the technical skill, but... they just aren't writing about anything, in the end, and all of that technical skill become just... flimsy, without content.

(Anonymous) 2008-10-25 05:33 pm (UTC)(link)
ironic as it might seem, i don't like fics that are pretty. pretty, but empty, like a crystal vase sitting by the window. you look at it once in a while, and it's gorgeous in the light and captures rainbows in the diamond-shaped facets, but...

I stopped reading right there.

Way to be a hypocrite. Most of your convoluted, badly-written fanfiction is exactly this type of writing, with just as convoluted, badly-written metaphors stretched to breaking point within them to describe how characters feel about each other. Even when the character would ICly never be intelligent enough to think this way in the first place. I'm not saying you suck, but you are rather mediocre and everything I see by you, I dismiss not as badfic but as boring pretty!fic.

Try looking at your own writing. You are one of the people you complain about.

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-25 05:49 pm (UTC)(link)
Do you expect me to scream and cry at you in incoherence, that's why you went anon to say this? Do de-anon - it makes things easier for both of us, and I don't take offence that easily. I won't throw a fit and defriend you or anything.

Part of it I think you misunderstood me, so perhaps you should have read further? Or perhaps I should have made myself clearer in my first sentence. Hm. But anyway, I don't dislike metaphors and imagery - like you pointed out yourself, I use them. A lot. I adore descriptive language, but I use that language for a purpose, and I dwell on that a lot when I write.

Every metaphor I use have a purpose. And honestly a lot of times I feel that using these devices actually showed these emotions with far more clarity and strength. It illuminates a lot. Like in that simile I used above, I think you immediately got what I meant, and I used it later on to further show how that pretty language actually becomes dull and loses its impact. (I'm discussing lit techniques in a blog entry. What the heck, self.) I use descriptive, 'pretty' langugae for a purpose, which is the point I'm getting ast here - that it's often used to no purpose, and it drowns out the characters and the stories and turns it all into something meaningless.

I do look at my own writing a lot, but I admit that I of course have bias. I don't mind that you think my writing is mediocre. I know that I'm far from perfect, that I have a lot more to work on. (As Echizen would say, 'Mada mada dane', and I apply it to a lot of myself. Life is a constant pursuit of improvement.) But I'd rather that you tell me face to face instead of behind anon so that I can, with your permission, pry your brain to see how I can improve on it. It's impossible to try to please everyone, I know (different preferences, after all), but I would really like to know what you judge to be goodfic so I can stop writing 'boring pretty!fic.

^^;

(Anonymous) 2008-10-25 06:11 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm sure most of the writers that you're complaining about think the exact same thing about their fics, if you brought this issue up to them. It's not only for the pretty! It has depth! And meaning! But you don't see it. Just like I and others don't see it in your fic either.

I'm not on your flist. I was linked here by someone else. I do, however, like to call hypocrisy when I see it, and I have read some of your fandom writing before. Already gave you my opinion on that.

[identity profile] theburningempty.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 02:51 am (UTC)(link)
DEAR MYSTERIOUS ANON PERSON <3

I really admire the fact that you know what you're looking for in fics. And anonymity aside... you're pretty direct in what you say and your words have got me thinking about my own writing too *A* The depth and meaning of metaphors... what makes them comprehensible to everyone? What makes it possible for authors to share their concepts with people who share the same thinking processes... and different processes? How far can omniscient narration push theme and metaphors?

Anon. I would be incredibly happy and indebted to you if you would lend some of your time to read even a bit of my writing. Rip everything to shreds with no mercy. Put it into the blender that is your mind and spit everything out at me, I beg you! I don't mind if you stay anon <33

"Spin" and "Unrequited Animosity" are my best Dino/Hibari fics.
"Scramble" is Hibari vs. Gokudera and kinda turns into Hibari/Gokudera. It has the heaviest descriptive language by far... and is the longest fic I've ever written in that style. Also most violent.
"Licking Wounds and Nursing Egos" Xanxus/Squalo. Um I've got a lot of positive comments on this which sort of worries me haha!

If anon could review even one fic... I'd be extremely grateful ;_; <3 I WANT TO IMPROVE MY WRITING LIKE BURNINGGG.

love, spart.

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 03:02 am (UTC)(link)
Perhaps those authors think that, but this is just my opinion. Just like it's yours and 'others' who think that my fics don't have meaning or that my writing style has problems. You're just being a tease now, to be honest. Which ones of my fandom writings have you read? What exactly do you think is wrong with them? Because really, I don't see where your criticisms are coming from, and I would really, really like to see where I can improve, hypocrisy or not.

I'm not as forward as [livejournal.com profile] theburningempty right above, but I'd like to ask for you to rip apart something of mine anyway, just so I can understand what you mean. And how to get BETTER from it.

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 03:37 am (UTC)(link)
SILENCE, PLEBIAN.

I was trying to make you look better there. Bitch.

[identity profile] theburningempty.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 11:04 pm (UTC)(link)
PFFT <3

[identity profile] takishia.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
Here via [livejournal.com profile] array_of_colors. Nice to meet you, so to speak ^^

Just my thoughts:

I generally like pretty, but I think it can be hard to find/write pretty that can make the reader feel something? I guess the problem comes when the writer doesn't know what kind of effect they want to achieve. Or there is no plot. There was this youtube comment I read regarding Damien Rice's lyrics for Coconut Skins--that the artist sometimes write random things that don't make sense/ don't know why they were saying it. For one thing, I think there was a point to his lyrics, as for writing in a broader sense, it'll probably end up like what you were saying? (Previously posted elsewhere)

I'm not sure if I agree with the characterisation point. With metaphors/flowery descriptions, I think there'll be some allowances for the writer to play with words. I'm not articulating my point clearly, but what I'm trying to say is, characterisation would come across more through dialogue and the way they react to things. If metaphors need to be the ones the character would use, wouldn't they have to think like writers, in a sense?

[identity profile] evocates.livejournal.com 2008-10-26 02:45 am (UTC)(link)
YES. Precisely. The reader usually feels more wowed by the techniques used and the prettiness of the language that doesn't contribute to an overall effect (because good novels, good art, even those are that postmodernist do have an overarching theme or message). And yes, I think that's the problem usually - that the writers don't know what they want to say, and so it's all a jumble of messages or no message at all and it just rings empty, really. It's not done with a purpose that the reader can tell.

Mm, true! But I'm talking about it in a much broader sense. Like, for Hibari Kyouya in KHR, when I wrie his introspective, I write with very primal metaphors - wolves, sheep, herbivores, carnivores, prey, predator, etc. He notices things like how weight is balanced on the feet, how people move in general... all that. With Ohtori Kyouya of Ouran, I have much more room to place with because part of my characterisation for him is that he's an artist, he appreciates beauty, and he had learnt enough and is, well, cultured enough to use these metaphors in his thoughts, as a form of distancing. It's the type of metaphors you use when introspecting with a character, really, and it does contribute to the characterisation.

Dialogue and their reactions form a big part of characterisation, of course, but I think that even these descriptions and metaphors should contribute as well. Especially when you're writing in first person or even third person limited. It's part of the character's voice.